16 Player Support.

[zeth]

I Just got back from a small local network gaming event with some friends. KF was pretty much the exclusive game planned, but sadly we ended up having to split off into 3 seperate games with roughly 4-5 people each due to lack of player support beyond 6.

This should be a relatively basic request to resolve since maxing the player limit with 16 bots seems to be no real issue. I'm not very familar with UT2K4 itself, but I did poke around in the configs to try and get a quickie bypass. Despite my best efforts to up the limit by increasing minPlayer and per-map settings, not much was accomplished to remedy things.

Since the limit seems to be hard-code enforced unless I'm mistaken, there's not much I can do about it without some intervention from one of the KF coders or at least some source files for me to personally dabble around with.

We should be having another little get together on New Years also. Think there's any chance someone could swing by the boards, alter an integer, and spew out a patch for us?

[mrmedic]

I don't know if the KF Coders want their code in everyone's hands, but the source file is "KFGametype.uc"

[Abyx]

6 players is hard coded, I highly doubt you'll be able to change it.

It's hardcoded because 6 players is all that'd work for the game, anything else would kill preformance due to the amount of specimens, and it'd be too easy for 16 people to kill 300-400 specimens.

[mrmedic]

abyx said:

It's hardcoded because 6 players is all that'd work for the game, anything else would kill preformance due to the amount of specimens, and it'd be too easy for 16 people to kill 300-400 specimens.

That reminds me checking through the code. It was programmed so if you had 2 or less players, the specimens would be less/easier. Prehaps if you want to accomodate for 16 players you could code it in so the zombies are more in quantity/harder?

[Abyx]

mrmedic said:

abyx said:

It's hardcoded because 6 players is all that'd work for the game, anything else would kill preformance due to the amount of specimens, and it'd be too easy for 16 people to kill 300-400 specimens.

That reminds me checking through the code. It was programmed so if you had 2 or less players, the specimens would be less/easier. Prehaps if you want to accomodate for 16 players you could code it in so the zombies are more in quantity/harder?

To what? 1000 specimens per round? That's insane.

[mrmedic]

abyx said:

To what? 1000 specimens per round? That's insane.

mrmedic said:

That reminds me checking through the code. It was programmed so if you had 2 or less players, the specimens would be less/easier. Prehaps if you want to accomodate for 16 players you could code it in so the zombies are more in quantity/harder?

I would make "harder" in bold, but It seems I cannot.

[Alex]

Its not just the gametype, but the maps that are hardwired for a max of 6 players. There's only 6 spawnpoints in any given map, and a max of six "teleport" spaces for trader's shop bootage.

[zeth]

It's hardcoded because 6 players is all that'd work for the game, anything else would kill preformance due to the amount of specimens, and it'd be too easy for 16 people to kill 300-400 specimens.

You wouldn't necessarily have to raise specimen count that high and I think you misunderstanding the type of players I'm talking about. Let's just say this, one of the other teams never made it past wave 3... EVER. They played for about 12 hours straight also. After a while I did edit a config or so to give them 1000 starting cash so they could survive a bit longer, but regardless they were a tad bit careless and rather freaked/edgy at time.

Basically this is a way for us to put in the GOOD players with the "I've never touched a mouse in my life" players and everyone can have fun, together.

To what? 1000 specimens per round? That's insane.

Although that might not be necessary in this case, it could done by any number of methods.

Firstly would be to have a max specimen count on map at one time (which I'm sure is probably already in place). As the map progresses and you keep fighting off waves, ammo would become scarce if not used carefully anyhow. The same good ol' KF survival instinct gameplay style would preserve itself naturally .

Additionally you COULD try and pour all the baddies on screen at once, prevent clustering with AI checks, overhaul some LOD to the point of SystemShock2 quality models, and make use of hardware 'instancing', but I'm not entirely sure if UT2k4 supports the latter. In theory all that really would need to be done is to use billboard imposters for distanced zombies and use mesh-based graphics for closer ones.

A third method would just be to increase the creatures health and/or alter the sequence of monsters as they appear. For instance perhaps having the Stalkers appear in the first round to balance player amounts. You could also scale the monster difficulty in response to the starting cash as well (for those who like to jump in round one with a hunting shotgun).

I would probably consider going with method 1 as a temporary solution and resort to method 2 when you have time to spend on the process. Method 3 is more along the lines of a "Wave Intensity" option that would tie in better to the difficulty (if it doesn't already)

Its not just the gametype, but the maps that are hardwired for a max of 6 players. There's only 6 spawnpoints in any given map, and a max of six "teleport" spaces for trader's shop bootage.

Typically I've never been able to fit 3-4 buying at one time anyhow. And since I HAVE loaded 16 bots before, I'm thinking that the spawn points have some sort of overladed non-telefrag mechanism in place.

I would make "harder" in bold, but It seems I cannot.

Don't worry. You DID make it bold. It's just not very noticable with this particular forum style. Try coloring it white also to bring things out more .

harder harder harder harder

[zeth]

*bump*

Is there any hope for this humble New Years request, or should I perhaps start looking into alternative games for us to enjoy?

[mrmedic]

IF you REALLY want it.....then I'm sure you could find a *willing* member. But I doubt that *willing* member would make 10 more spawnpoints and trader teleporters for you on every map
EDIT: Also I would like to see what happens to the in-game GUI before you start playing, there is only 6 slots open on it...

[zeth]

IF you REALLY want it.....then I'm sure you could find a *willing* member. But I doubt that *willing* member would make 10 more spawnpoints and trader teleporters for you on every map

As I already mentioned, this shouldn't be an issue considering how max (16) bots respond to these situations correctly. Groups simply cluster to the same spawn points without telefragging and shop also ejects the masses in the same manner.

Also I would like to see what happens to the in-game GUI before you start playing, there is only 6 slots open on it...

This is true that the UI itself doesn't have enough slots to give information on each name, but it seems to be just a simple hardcoded integer probably holding back the ENTIRE 16 (human) player experience from going off without a hitch.

[Grim]

Allowing sixteen player support would require a lot of balancing, too much balancing infact. After all, say sixteen players, say all with the lower end shotgun, is enough fire power to survive it easily, not to mentioned the fact you can get higher powered stuff like the L.A.W and the DoubleBarreled Shotgun, anyways, to balance things, you need to either, increase the health and damage rate of the specimens in general, and/or increase the amount of specimens in general. Which is plausable, yes, but we'd also have to start resizing maps as'well, since sixteen players, plus more specimens, or harder ones, you need a lot of room to move, and it'd become such a cluster that the sixteen players really didn't do anything except, well, cause problems because everyone is mad that there is no room.

Also, on a quick note, too many people, means less money, meaning you won't be able to buy things, and keep up with ammo, even with spawns, and basically 80% of the team is screwed over that way, now, it does add to the gameplay needing to conserve ammo, but that's a bit too much.


Now, although it'd be a great idea for bigger maps, and sure you could set things up so there are maps for sixteen, and maps for six, but like I said, balancing would be a bit of an issue. Since you really have to, well, make sure it's not too hard, or too easy, without ruining traditional six player game play and etc. If anything, I'd suggest maybe asking for a lower number, a more plausable number, maybe eight player support?

[Doyora]

The most ideal solution wold be to have individual forced maxplayer counts on each map, so a bigger one could have 10, while a smaller one 4. But I don't even know if that would be possible, and if it is, it would require shedloads of work.

[zeth]

Allowing sixteen player support would require a lot of balancing, too much balancing infact. After all, say sixteen players, say all with the lower end shotgun, is enough fire power to survive it easily, not to mentioned the fact you can get higher powered stuff like the L.A.W and the DoubleBarreled Shotgun, anyways, to balance things, you need to either, increase the health and damage rate of the specimens in general, and/or increase the amount of specimens in general. Which is plausable, yes, but we'd also have to start resizing maps as'well, since sixteen players, plus more specimens, or harder ones, you need a lot of room to move, and it'd become such a cluster that the sixteen players really didn't do anything except, well, cause problems because everyone is mad that there is no room.

Possible long term and short term solutions were covered in my previous post.

Also, on a quick note, too many people, means less money, meaning you won't be able to buy things, and keep up with ammo, even with spawns, and basically 80% of the team is screwed over that way, now, it does add to the gameplay needing to conserve ammo, but that's a bit too much.

I'll continue by saying that cash earned could very quickly be adjusted to scale with difficulty/player count to balance things if need really be. In this particular case though, I wasn't requesting something extensive or long-term for the project unless further tested and practically broken down.

Honestly, I was just looking for something quick and dirty so the upcoming network gathering won't be a BUST again. We're talking 5 minutes code work TOPS. I already covered how horrible the other players were likely to be and how we do tweak server settings violently to match needs and just simply have fun with everyone. I suppose a New Years Eve patch for this event seems a bit unlikely as I get the impression the coders are either quite busy, currently away, or unwilling to toss me source files for a quick peek n' patch.

The most ideal solution wold be to have individual forced maxplayer counts on each map, so a bigger one could have 10, while a smaller one 4.

Again, this is a bit of overkill for what I had humbly requested. I wasn't suggesting a permanent long-term game alteration, or for all the mappers to run out there and make their maps more flexable to a wider variety of player counts.

All in all again, I simply wanted to shove all 10-16 of us in a single match without worry and just have fun. Not worrying about balance. Not concerning with ammo/cash issues.

Just simple, brute force fun/fear for the game itself with my group of personal friends who enjoy it so.

~Brad Smithee

[mrmedic]

I would "toss" you the source files, but if you get it, that means everyone must get it. And if everyone gets it, then its far to simple to copy the code, change it slightly and proclaim it as yours. Plus I don't have permission from the developers of the code.
Something "amazing" might happen. You never know.