A modest proposal

[el'PiX]

doomest said:

We have to advertise KF more often. We have such a small community because hardly anyone knows

I wouldn't say 200 unique visitors / day makes it a very small community.
Most people just like playing and are not overly interested in discussing the game.

I too think sticking to UT2004 is for the best.
Hell, people still play Quake(quakeworld),
and UT is a modern classic.

[Blue]

I´m not voting, since I`m not long enough part of the community.

Just wanted to say that I even play Starcraft from time to time. Until three months ago I even played it regulary. Heck, two days ago I installed Counter-Strike again to play Sven Co-op again with two friends of mine. And I certainly won´t leave UT04 anytime soon.

(And I haven´t got the money to upgrade my computer anyway.)

[uwasawaya]

Blue, it's the newer people who are going to be carrying and driving this product... don't think you shouldn't vote...

Besides, I don't think of you as 'the new guy' any more really... you graduate when you appear in the story

And where can I find the emails for these guys? I'll ask them to advertise for us, sure!

[Doyora]

I can decide...

OK I will. UT2007 presents wonderfull oppurtunities as a mapper, but IMO we should stick to 2004 since the goals are more acheivable ATM. But I couldn't say no to a possible future conversion to 07.

[zombieButcher]

Whatever im sticking to UT2004, fuck 2007.

[Grim]

I'll buy UT2007 off of Ebay for twenty bucks a year or so after it's released

[Alex]

And I figure at this point - I should interject.

While it delights me to see you guys taking avid interest in carrying KF off into the next generation - try to remember the facts.

Developing KF 2.0 on unreal engine 2 took the better part of 2 years. Sure there was a small team involved, but the amount of work that was done in order to produce it was monumental. Literally, the only reason I could manage it is because I sacrificed some of my social and pretty much ALL of my academic life in order to grind away at it. As some of you know, I'm now in Scotland atoning for my sins ...

Fact : Developing on UE3 will be Alot_more_involved.

Somebody in this thread mentioned normal maps and refractions as being a commodity in UE3. Ok. Do you know what is involved in putting those to use? Have you got the experience to do it effectively? Is it even important or relevant to KF ? Are they actually necessary or just gravy?

I'm going to get on my soapbox for a moment here and puff up my chest - I made modding look easy. And dont get me wrong - SOME parts of it are very accessable and can be picked up without too much effort. Other parts will have you funneling hours and days and weeks and months of your life into a bottomless void from which very little of any use emerges.

Be_realistic in your expectations.
I was personally honored and impressed by the pro-active response from the community when I broke the news about my hard drive. Everybody stepped up to fight the good fight, and carry on the torch. That was awesome.

But by the same token, understand that every mod has a life. KFs has - in my eyes, run its course more or less, and it should die in peace on the 2k4 engine. It doesnt have to die today, or tomorrow, or even 5 years down the road. If people want to keep playing it, and adding to it, and mapping for it, thats just fantastic.

But throwing around naieve ideas of converting something as massive as Killing Floor to the next generation iteration of what is already a fairly advanced engine is probably a waste of time.

Further - Recycling KF with shinier graphics to win an MSU in the future strikes me as abit...well, i cringed when I heard that for some reason. Its just not respectful, creative, or realistic.

This is all a long winded way of saying
KEEP KF ON THE ENGINE IT IS NOW ON.
and
KEEP MAKING IT BETTER ON THIS ENGINE.

with the experience you gain from tinkering with KF, you guys may even want to start your own projects on UE3 when 2k7 releases, or try for the MSU yourselves. Shit, I know I will be trying at it this time around.

But i'll be doing it with some totally fresh IP

[mrmedic]

admin said:

Somebody in this thread mentioned normal maps and refractions as being a commodity in UE3. Ok. Do you know what is involved in putting those to use? Have you got the experience to do it effectively? Is it even important or relevant to KF ? Are they actually necessary or just gravy?

That was me. And yes I understand it has basically nothing to do with KF...I was just fumbling for examples. And yes it is kind of gravy. Sorry

[Grim]

We love you Alex!

[uwasawaya]

Thank you Alex.

That brings up something that I should have pointed out earlier... we do need to keep things reigned in a bit more. I was excited too, but he's right, and it's something that's been on my mind since Faust appointed me. This is going to be hard. There's going to be a lot of sacrifice for us all to work on this, and the sooner we accept it the sooner we can get down to brass tacks.

Alex gave us a hell of a head start... the more I think of it, that would be like someone building a house out of wood, working hard on it, and then being unable to finish and passing it off to people who leave it in it's present state and build the same house out of brick.

Gotta hack through goblins and kobolds before taking on the dragons. We'll take it one step at a time, and if we decide we like working together, maybe we can start learning 2k7 for our own endeavor.

[Dastard]

Well, I wasn't saying just drop the UT2k4 version, and I certainly didn't mean to come across like I was saying that the only reason to port it to 2k7 would be to win the MSUC. Honestly the only reason I brought that up was that it's a great venue to bring in a wider interest in the mod, and I was trying to say that the KF gameplay and atmosphere would be a surefire win in such if we wanted to get a head start. I'm mostly interested in the what seems to be great amount of power in the UE3 editor. Regardless, the community (and Alex, who has quite a bit more of a voice in this than just about everyone here) has spoken.

I mostly just was thinking about how cool it would be to extend it into UE3. Thusly it's just a proposal, a suggestion, not a demand.

[uwasawaya]

A good proposal though. Now what about the babies?

[kyben]

I say there are tons of things we can do with this mod. Besides its all about gameplay, not graphics. There are lots of old crappy looking games that I go back to because they are fun, this should be one of them. Make some more game modes, character skins, different kinds of specimens, guns, and maps. We are thinking to far ahead, we haven't even done singleplayer yet, lets add on first and get settled in.

[Alex]

I should have mentioned this before, but I had been preparing it as a big newspost.

Regarding "bringing KF to a wider audience", there is another option...

A while back (before the 2.0 release, even) I was approached by a representative from Tripwire interactive - The uberleet studs who rocketed to fame with Red Orchestra on UT2k4 and then went retail via steam.

As it turns out, they are looking to make money! (imagine that!) and have been scouring for completed UT Total Conversions that could be brought onto steam and sort of "bundled" with Red Orchestra Ostfront.

In short - They offered KF a place on steam.

The pro/ con list is pretty straightforward. Nobody would be making any money out of this venture, but them. They've got the license, and they would essentially be using KF as a "sweetener" to convince potential RO steam buyers to shell out for their game.

KF would not be playable as standalone on steam

It would essentially be like an RO mod, if that makes any sense. People would have to buy RO before they could play KF.

It would also be a serious amount of work to make KF steam ready. Sounds, Visual assets, ANYTHING to do with UT2k4 (excepting the code) would have to be removed, and made completely unique to KF. It may look like KF is completely unique and doesnt rely on 2k4 for much, but you might be suprised the odds and ends (particularly in the ambient sound department) that would have to be painstakingly corrected.

That having been said. (all the negative bits to the transaction)

Steam is a big motherfucking venue. KF on steam would really widen the audience. ALOT. Even just with the RO steam playerbase, there would be alot more people giving it a shot

Further - If you want access to some of the fancy visuals RO ostrfront uses care of engine modifications (HDR lighting in UE) then that would be possible for KF as well. When and if KF joined RO on steam. it would have access to Tripwires codebase and their tweaked version of the UE engine. All the little goodies that a simple UT2k4 mod could never have.

Industry aspirations - Im just putting this one in here for the more pragmatic of you who think that one day you might like to end up making games for a living. The fact is that tripwire has been massively successful, and taking them up on their offer would be a great way to shmooze with some pros and pimp KF.

Just so you know - I did say *yes* to this proposal several months ago. Then things got crazy / busy / etc. And I lost track of the possibility of a conversion. Therefore - I put it to you folks , since you seem pretty gungho. It would be a ton of work, and it would require the swallowing of some pride - but the results could be worth it.

Just another option to look at, anyway.

[uwasawaya]

Well, I try to be open about these things... I used to be a crusader for the free mod people... I thought that it was 'selling out' to make people buy your mod... and then I discovered something: rent.

Basically, you need to eat and live. Money is a good way to help that along. It also makes you want to work on the mod more. Sure, CS blew when it first sold out, but it rocks now, more than it ever did.

I think we need to do our own thing for a bit... but definately a thought. Alex, I want you to be with us though. Not necessarily to work, but this is your baby, you deserve all of the credit, no matter what happens.